General Digest, Vol 42, Issue 5

I am also the third generation born in this country. My father was raised in
East L.A. his grandparents came from Aguascalientes and Culiacan. My father
only spoke spanish until the age of 5 when he started attending public
school. My mother is a NewYorican ( a Puerto Rican from New York) her mother
came as a girl w/parents from Humacao, PR. She says she dosen't ever
remember not understanding both english and spanish. While both my parents
are bilingual they never taught their children spanish. They would say they
spoke primarily in english because they "think in english". The funny thing
is that they spoke spanish around us just enough for us to understand what
was being said when we heard the language, but we can't speak it. I have
learned that the 3rd generation born in the US usually don't speak spanish.
The first must speak it to communicate w/parents. The 2nd generation usually
speak it to communicate w/grandparents who frequently take care of them as
children. The third generation rarely speak spanish fluently. I have about
30 first cousins and none of them speak spanish except 2 of them who moved
to Mexico for an extended period of time to learn the language. I personally
feel like my parent did me a diservice.

On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 4:03 PM,
wrote:

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> DAILY DIGEST
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Y-DNA and Jews (Cole Tepper)
> 2. DNA and Spanish Language (rosehardy@hotmail.com)
> 3. Y-DNA and Jews/Spanish Language (Linda)
> 4. Re: Y-DNA and Jews/Spanish Language (patty haro)
> 5. Traducci?n No 1 Y DNA Update (arman212@sbcglobal.net)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 22:02:51 -0700
> From: Cole Tepper
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Y-DNA and Jews
> To: general@nuestrosranchos.com
> Message-ID:
> <44ed8e970907042202p45cfb87ey21310a675b26d245@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Its ironic...My family has been in the States for 3 born generations(and
> the
> crossover generation before that). My grandparents, first generation(at
> least..on my grandma's side..dunno much about my grandfather's side) born
> here, speak/spoke it but also are native english speakers. My mother and
> my
> aunts/uncles all were taught English and didn't learn Spanish(for those
> that
> know it now) until high-school or college or just curiosity as adults. As
> far as my mother goes, she has some understanding ability but no speaking
> ability whatsoever. She's as bleached as they come. Myself and my
> brothers
> have learned Spanish only through high-school, although I personally took
> only 2 years and have a very weak vocabulary and crippled grammar. In
> university, I took up the study of Hebrew instead of continuing with
> Spanish(and its funny because I'm in San Diego).......When intoxicated I
> tend to randomly pick either tongue to express myself, sometimes both.
>
> As for the topic of Jewish DNA....I'm currently studying potential links to
> Sephardim and the Conversos/Marranos in Zacatecas. Its hard because the 3
> epicenters of Jews in Mexico at any given era where they were present would
> be Guadalajara(Jalisco), Monterrey (Nuevo Leon), and Mexico City (DF),
> though I know quite a few Jews from TJ and around here too. Zacatecas is a
> middle-ground for all 3 of those..........Given how by name, some of my
> family names come up as Sephardic, and how my family are as referred to in
> some of the e-mails here "Norteno"(lighter features,etc.) and come from an
> oral history of European roots(Spanish and French), this topic has great
> personal interest. Currently pending is a FamilyTree DNA test(Y-37 and
> mtDNA..but only my mtDNA is Mexican) so I'll see whether my suspicions are
> correct.
>
> That said...Don't be ashamed or offended if your ancestors aren't
> "Visigoths". The Sephardim contributed a great deal and financed the
> expeditions. It is because of them that Spain had fulfilled and realized
> its' potential to become a dominant power....My ancestor on my father's
> side
> is supposedly one of the chief financiers of Columbus before the Expulsion
> forced them out. Look up Meir Melamed and the Abarbanels. Without that
> money, there is not so much likelihood that they would've sent out
> colonizing parties when they did. No colonies or plunder = no economy = no
> Spain. If your ancestors are Berbers, they also contributed to
> Spain(Muslim
> Spain was supposed to be more advanced scientifically and socially).
>
> On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 12:40 PM, wrote:
>
> > My house was different...my daddy was a white and mom from totatiche
> > mexico.....mom spoke no english and dad spoke no spanish (few words here
> and
> > there).......my sister and I are both fully bilingual.........but now
> using
> > english more and speaking spanish only when I am at work or with my
> > mom........I feel I am just losing my spanish....?????? :-(
> > Stella
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: AliceBB
> > To: general@nuestrosranchos.com
> > Sent: Sat, Jul 4, 2009 9:04 am
> > Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Y-DNA and Jews
> >
> >
> >
> > The primary and secondary language issue is complex. Both my parents are
> > from
> > Mexico, however, my first language was English, yet I am bilingual. When
> > they
> > immigrated to the US in the late 1940's they moved into the "anglo" side
> of
> > town
> > for the better schools and witnessed the difficulty my older brother had
> > and
> > vowed they would try to make life easier for me when I was born 15 years
> > later.
> > They spoke to me primarily in English, but continued to use Spanish
> amongst
> > themselves. My MA is in second language acquisiton and learning, and I
> now
> > know
> > why it worked. At any time in our lives we all acquire language in the
> > same
> > process: listening, understanding, and speaking. I didn't speak Spanish
> > until I
> > was about 18 because of the lack of necessity and opportunity in my
> > neighborhood
> > and educational situation. However, when I decided to make the effort to
> > speak
> > Spanish, it did come and I am able to speak both languages without an
> > accent.
> > So you don't necessarily lose it if you don't use, it can lay "dormant"
> in
> > the
> > brain until awakened. Literacy is a whole other animal. You have to
> teach
> > yourself or be taught to read and write. ABB
> >
> > --- longsjourney@yahoo.com wrote:
> >
> > From: Erlinda Castanon-Long
> > To: general@nuestrosranchos.com
> > Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Y-DNA and Jews
> > Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 17:25:34 -0700 (PDT)
> >
> > I'm a different Linda but we had the same rule in our family, No Spanish
> > unless
> > it was a secret plus my grandparents would tell us," you're an American
> so
> > speak
> > English!)? I know that they thought they were helping us to fit by not
> > having a
> > Spanish accent when we spoke English.? Our town was very divided racially
> > and
> > all any parents want's is the best avenue for their children so I'm not
> > angry or
> > fell cheated.? I did take it in high school but found when you don't use
> it
> > you
> > loose it!? When I went to Mexico they laughed at my slow broken Spanish
> but
> > appreciated that I did try.? My family immigrated in 1916 from Jerez and
> > both
> > grandparents became ci
> > tizens and spoke English to all the grandchildren.
> > ?
> > LInda in B.C.
> >
> > --- On Fri, 7/3/09, sjlstar@aol.com wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: sjlstar@aol.com
> > Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Y-DNA and Jews
> > To: general@nuestrosranchos.com
> > Date: Friday, July 3, 2009, 4:11 PM
> >
> >
> > Linda,
> > why forbidden?
> > Stella
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Linda
> > To: general@lists.nuestrosranchos.com
> > Sent: Fri, Jul 3, 2009 3:57 pm
> > Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Y-DNA and Jews
> >
> >
> > I agree with Antonio Santillan. I do not speak Spanish, even though my
> > father
> > was born in Jalisco. It was forbidden in our house (except when he and my
> > mother
> > had secrets not for children's ears). It is difficult to follow
> everything
> > on
> > this list unless a person is bilingual. My fondest wish would be to have
> a
> > translating angel who would magically translate all the emails into both
> > Spanish
> > and English so we could all participate in whatever discussion interests
> > us.
> > Valuable information would not be missed.?
> > ?
> > Maybe, one of these days, there will be such an invention for the net.?
> > ?
> > Linda?
> > ?
> > On Jul 3, 2009, at 5:03 PM,
> general-request@lists.nuestrosranchos.comwrote:?
> > ?
> > > Message: 3?
> > > Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 23:32:10 +0000?
> > > From: Antonio Santillan ?
> > > Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Y-DNA and Jews?
> > > To: ?
> > > Message-ID: ?
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"?
> > >?
> > >?
> > > Un comentario a todos los compa?eros, no todos entendemos el > ingles,
> de
> > tal
> > manera que no participamos aun teniendo ganas y > datos que aportar a los
> > distintos temas, sugerencia no podrian > tambien escribirlos en espa?ol y
> > asi
> > aumentar el numero de > participantes en las discuciones.?
> > >?
> > >?
> > >?
> > > Saludos cordiales?
> > >?
> > >?
> > >?
> > > Antonio Santillan?
> > >?
> > ?
> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --?
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> > _____________________________________________________________
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 08:49:21 -0700 (PDT)
> From: rosehardy@hotmail.com
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] DNA and Spanish Language
> To: general@lists.nuestrosranchos.com
> Message-ID:
> &nid=17858&pid=16032&cid=16037&uid=432&tid=
> 1&32f6143b8dfc3ecb388c6d246b1c15b3@www.nuestrosranchos.com<1%2632f6143b8dfc3ecb388c6d246b1c15b3@www.nuestrosranchos.com>
> >
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
> I found this thread very interesting to read. I myself do not speak spanish
> even though my parents did (mostly talking about us kids at the dinner
> table) I understand a few words here and there, but not much. It surprised
> me to learn that my mothers father who was from the old Californio families
> was not raised speaking spanish until he met my grandmother who was from
> Durangom, Mexico.
>
> I was born and raised in the eastern part of Los Angeles county and my
> father did not want his children to learn spanish for fear we would be
> discriminated against. We did not live in the barrio like my grandparents
> (my Los Altos ancestors), but on the north end of town in a middle class
> neighborhood, in an all Caucasian neighborhood. I have heard stories
> regarding my great uncles who applied for work with the county of L.A. and
> were not hired due to their ethic background. The 1930's was also a time in
> this county where Mexican/Americans were being deported to Mexico even
> though they were born in the U.S. as were their parents....they were
> bascially deported because they were dark Mexicans. Some cousins that I know
> of who were light-skinned Mexicians claiming they came from Spain just so
> that they would not be deported.
>
> I just wanted to add my little story.
>
> And by the way, I did my DNA about 2 years ago and belong to Haplo group C.
> Very interesting stuff.
>
> Rose
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 12:15:17 -0500
> From: Linda
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Y-DNA and Jews/Spanish Language
> To: general@lists.nuestrosranchos.com
> Message-ID: <1FDDBF11-B7B5-4177-A2DA-AD632511D2C9@earthlink.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
>
> Hi all,
>
> Don't be surprised that many of us "older" first generation Americans
> don't speak our parents mother tongue. My father was born in
> Tepatitlan de Morelos in 1909. That was 100 years ago with 100 years
> ago attitudes. He came to the States in 1923, following his older
> brother who came a few years earlier. His brother settled in the
> "Mexican neighborhood" of Milwaukee. My father raised his family in
> the "Polish neighborhood". My father and his sister both married
> Anglos, his brother married a Mexican. Dad told stories about his
> family back in Mexico but most of the stories were fabricated. One
> example was that his father or grandfather came from Spain. I've
> traced his direct male ancestors back to around 1820 and they were
> all born in Tepatitlan. So much for his pride in his heritage. It
> was the "old way." As you can guess by my father's age, I am not a
> spring chicken and learning a new language is not easy. I've picked
> up enough to read the Baptismos, etc., but not enough to follow the
> Spanish threads on this list. As someone earlier mentioned, the
> translators available online make for comical reading.
>
> I love my heritage and wish I knew more about it. I am trying, but
> it is slow going. I would like to find a fellow researcher who is
> interested in Tepatitlan. I get help when necessary, but it's not
> the same as having a research buddy who is bilingual.
>
> Good luck to you all in your research. One day I may learn more
> Spanish. Until then, the bilingual translations on this list are
> great when they are there.
>
> Linda Romero
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 13:20:32 -0500
> From: patty haro
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Y-DNA and Jews/Spanish Language
> To: general@nuestrosranchos.com
> Message-ID:
> <88d2ffcf0907051120u2c0e7067secae79cfb74f4b29@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> hi linda,
> I am about to start my research for my Tepatitlan branch, I am going to
> look
> for the marriges file of 1854, so I am almost sure I will be looking for
> the
> film of bautisms you need, give me the exact data cross your fingers and
> I?ll tell you my findings.
>
> Well, my english is not quite good, I hope you undestand me, if you or
> someone else need translation, and you settle with my english I will be
> glad
> on doing it.
>
> Patty Haro
>
> On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 12:15 PM, Linda wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Don't be surprised that many of us "older" first generation Americans
> don't
> > speak our parents mother tongue. My father was born in Tepatitlan de
> > Morelos in 1909. That was 100 years ago with 100 years ago attitudes.
> He
> > came to the States in 1923, following his older brother who came a few
> years
> > earlier. His brother settled in the "Mexican neighborhood" of Milwaukee.
> > My father raised his family in the "Polish neighborhood". My father and
> > his sister both married Anglos, his brother married a Mexican. Dad told
> > stories about his family back in Mexico but most of the stories were
> > fabricated. One example was that his father or grandfather came from
> Spain.
> > I've traced his direct male ancestors back to around 1820 and they were
> all
> > born in Tepatitlan. So much for his pride in his heritage. It was the
> "old
> > way." As you can guess by my father's age, I am not a spring chicken and
> > learning a new language is not easy. I've picked up enough to read the
> > Baptismos, etc., but not enough to follow the Spanish threads on this
> list.
> > As someone earlier mentioned, the translators available online make for
> > comical reading.
> >
> > I love my heritage and wish I knew more about it. I am trying, but it is
> > slow going. I would like to find a fellow researcher who is interested
> in
> > Tepatitlan. I get help when necessary, but it's not the same as having a
> > research buddy who is bilingual.
> >
> > Good luck to you all in your research. One day I may learn more Spanish.
> > Until then, the bilingual translations on this list are great when they
> are
> > there.
> >
> > Linda Romero
> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > Nuestros Ranchos General Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > general(at)NuestrosRanchos.com
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.NuestrosRanchos.com
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 11:58:19 -0700 (PDT)
> From: arman212@sbcglobal.net
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Traducci?n No 1 Y DNA Update
> To: general@lists.nuestrosranchos.com
> Message-ID:
> &nid=17858&pid=0&cid=16040&uid=3159&tid=
> 1&dfe6f543adbdcb5d2eb85a45852644c5@www.nuestrosranchos.com<1%26dfe6f543adbdcb5d2eb85a45852644c5@www.nuestrosranchos.com>
> >
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
> Hola a todos, viendo el post hoy en cuanto a resultados ADN-Y se me ocurrio
> que habia dicho que compartiera mis resultados en cuanto me llegaran.
> Disculpame por no haberlo hecho aunque lo mas seguro es que nadie dejo de
> dormir por eso ( JA !) Mis Y resultados ADN-Y son E1b1b1a2\Version Corta
> E-V13. Es el tercer m?s com?n haplogrupo entre los hombres de Europea y
> considerado uno de los bases o fundaciones de los grupos de Europe. Es el
> unico subgrupo E que se encuentra con baja frecuencia(2% ) en el Norte de
> Africa. Este subgrupo esta asociado con la pen?nsula balc?nica donde se
> encuentra el porcentaje mas grande del mundo de E-V13. Se usa para
> identificar poblaciones ancianas como los ?illyrians?, tracios y macedonios
> y tambien los griegos. Poblaciones modernos tiene alta porcentaje de E-V13
> son albaneses, griegos peloponesos, b?lgaros y macedonios.
> En Espa?a se encuentra en baja cantidad y principalmente esta concentrado
> en el occidente, el porcentaje se encuentra en Extremadura (9%), Galicia
> (7%) y en el Noroeste de Castilla La Vieja (6%). Pensaban, por un tiempo,
> que se encontraba en Espa?a por la exploraci?n y las colonias de los
> griegos, pero las colonias griegas solamante se encuentran en la costa
> oriental de las regiones de Catalu?a y Valencia. La gran mayoria de ?E?
> ADN-Y en Espa?a esta asociado con los bereberes, pero este es subgrupo
> E-M81.
> Una explicaci?n de la llegada a Espa?a y el oeste de Europa, de un marcador
> gen?tico tan predominante en la peninsula balc?nica y el mediterr?neo
> oriental, se puede encontrar en un pueblo en Gales llamado Abergele.
> Hicieron un estudio de los residentes y 7 resultados de los 18 hombres
> tenian el marcador E-V13. Hicieron otro estudio mas amplio que concluy? que
> 40% de los hombres en el pueblo tenian el marcador E-V13. Resulta que en la
> antig?edad Abergele era un pueblo Romano importante. No estaba acuartelado
> por Romanos\Italianos sino por auxiliares Tracios y otros hombres de origen
> balc?nico. Existe la posibilidad que pas? lo mismo en Espa?a, tal vez el
> marcador lleg? con los auxiliarios en el ej?rcito Romano. El marcador E-V13
> tambien lleg? a Afganist?n y Pakist?n con los hombres del ej?rcito de
> Alejandro Magno. Una peque?a porcentaje se encuentra entre los grupos que
> reclaman que esos hombres son sus antepasados.
> ?Que significa todo eso? Pues, una cosa, soy el ?nico E-V13 en el sitio de
> Gary Felix, ?Geneology of Mexico?. Hay otros que tienen los mismos
> resultados de 12\37, pero no han hecho el an?lisis ?deep clade?, asi que
> ?quien sabe? En cuestion de ayudarme con mi estudio geneal?gico, no ha
> ayudado hasta el momento. Pienso que mis antepasados posiblemente eran de
> una de las provincias occidentales, tal vez Extramadura, pero todo es
> especulaci?n en este momento. Discuplas por aburrirles! Gracias por sus
> paciencia!
>
> Roberto ~
>
>
> ------------------------------
>